The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
Technology, especially technology that allows peer-to-peer communication, is the enemy of dictators. In a crisis such as that we are witnessing right now in Iran, these technologies serve two purposes. First, they allow those oppressed by the government to communicate with the outside world and rally support when it is most needed. Second, they allow those opposed to the authorities to coordinate their activities.
There is a constant arms race between authoritarian governments and the engineering talent of the free world. The Iranian authorities seem to have been adept at mostly shutting down twentieth century technologies such as cell phones; to some extent, even late-twentieth century technologies, such as Internet sites. Apparently, they hadn’t thought of Twitter. This has turned out to be an incredible weapon for the protesters. I guess Mahmoud Ahmadinejad can just consider it to be a big bouquet from all of his fans in Silicon Valley. It’s a good day to be part of the technology industry.
Authoritarian societies are rarely good at developing and understanding innovative communications technologies, so they tend to be behind the curve. In May, 1992, I was in Bangkok when massive protests emerged seemingly spontaneously against a rigged election. Many at the time called this the “cell phone revolution”, because this was the then-new communications technology that protesters used to coordinate. I immediately went down to the large plaza where the protests were centered. Massed troops threatened the crowd. Later, when I was not present, they opened fire on the protesters en masse and cleared the survivors from the square. This was neither a police-like dispersal operation nor an isolated incident a la Kent State, but deliberate, national government policy on a large scale. There were scores of confirmed civilian deaths, and unconfirmed but credible reports of hundreds or thousands more.
We all internalize the experiences and norms of our societies, often in non-conscious ways. Standing in that chanting crowd in Bangkok, and facing an organized military force, I was too stupid to realize how much danger I was in – I never really thought they would put M-16s to their shoulders and begin firing volley after volley of live ammunition into the crowd. After May, 1992, I’ve never been able to see government and politics the same way again. As a wise man once put it, “Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.”. In the end, if some group of people has operational authority over a preponderance of the military, and is prepared to use it, nothing else really matters. You either have to divide the military, capture its loyalty or create a greater opposed armed force; otherwise, all you have is a bunch of dead bodies that used to be idealistic people.
Fortunately, this kind of government nihilism is part and parcel of dictatorship, which tends to underperform freer societies not only in communications technology, but in lots of ways relevant to military competitiveness. Hence we can protect ourselves against them, and incidentally provide various tools to their internal opponents.
The really tragic thing, of course, is that even when rebellions within nations without the social capital required for limited government – like what we are seeing right now in Iran – succeed, they mostly succeed in replacing once bunch of thugs with another.
“You either have to divide the military, capture its loyalty or create a greater opposed armed force; otherwise, all you have is a bunch of dead bodies that used to be idealistic people.”
This is a beautiful, sad sentence, Jim.
— Tony Comstock · Jun 15, 05:32 PM · #
Such technologies also allow a minority of relatively wealthy cosmopolitans to present themselves as the voice of their nation’s people to naive outsiders.
— forestwalker · Jun 15, 06:06 PM · #
One of the most encouraging things, to me, about what’s happening in Iran is the constant refrain I see about the military remaining “neutral”. The violence against the protesters seems to be coming mainly from the secret police and the like.
If the army is truly on the sidelines in this, there’s a chance for real change.
— Erik Siegrist · Jun 15, 06:14 PM · #
“within nations without the social capital required for limited government – like what we are seeing right now in Iran”
You sure about that? I think it’s pretty clear that Iran does have the social capital for limited government. They’re not going to get there anytime soon for a variety of other reasons, but social capital isn’t the restraining factor here.
Otherwise, an excellent post.
— Grunthos · Jun 15, 06:16 PM · #
aww Dr. Riddick your partisanslip is showing again!
Iran has the 3rd highest percentage of blog population in the world and the pop is 60% under 28.
They’ll get there.
Obama opened a door for dar al Islam.
I don’t think you neocons can force it shut now.
I told you Obama was speaking to a specific part of the dar al Islam.
Muslims under 30.
The Iranian people are perfectly entitled to elect thugs if they want to.
After all, we elected a moron.
— matoko_chan · Jun 15, 10:33 PM · #
In the end, if some group of people has operational authority over a preponderance of the military, and is prepared to use it, nothing else really matters. You either have to divide the military, capture its loyalty or create a greater opposed armed force; otherwise, all you have is a bunch of dead bodies that used to be idealistic people.
But, in the real end, those who do have such operational control usually want something more than dead bodies. They want people to do something. Without a civilian economy standing behind you to arm and feed you, your army is nothing. Apparently, for the moment at least, mass piles of dead bodies would cause more problems than they would be worth. Even in Iran, politics serves as a constraint on the military, albeit a very limited one.
— Consumatopia · Jun 15, 10:34 PM · #
Matoko:
You shouldn’t call Obama a moron.
— Jim Manzi · Jun 15, 10:34 PM · #
Consumatopia:
Certainly correct, but from the perspective of dictator X, it can be preferable to have a sullen population operating at low output through some combination of fear and apathy, but over whom you have near-absolute power, than to have a society that works well for just about anybody else. This can’t last forever, but it can last for a lig, long time. Look at North Korea.
— Jim Manzi · Jun 15, 10:41 PM · #
lol!
ssssssss
burnt meh that time Dr. Riddick
just u wait tho…. She is running, and that will afford meh infinite opportunities for sport.
Perhaps I can even break up Reihan and K-lo.
;)
— matoko_chan · Jun 15, 10:58 PM · #
When the logic is continuous political survival, Jim’s right. If you want evidence, take a look at this.
— Sargent · Jun 16, 12:50 AM · #
That seems rather dated Sargent. The newest data is 1999?
I think the combination of a heavily technologized citizenry and cell phone ownership, and the under 30s is something history hasn’t seen yet.
The reports seem to confirm that the army is neutral, and the intimidation squads are basij foreigners.
A nation cannot slaughter the cream of its human capital wholesale, ie the students, and expect to compete in the 21st century.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 07:01 AM · #
It might not be televised but it doesn’t mean it will go unseen – http://www.flickr.com/photos/fhashemi/
— ell · Jun 16, 09:53 AM · #
Chan, the data is dated, the theory is not. What makes you think they want to “compete” in a way that makes sense to you?
The men in power want to stay in power, for as long as possible. That’s where you start. As I said above, this axiom can be used to predict the actions of the regime, in a way that your half-baked aphorisms cannot. Which is why Jim is correct in when he talks about the seemingly counterintuitive incentive structure of an autocratic regime.
Saddam thrived when his people died. Remember that.
And now it’s time to make money.
— Sargent · Jun 16, 10:02 AM · #
Well….they are not slaughtering so far are they?
The Chinese had the luxury of a fungeable population, based on sheer numbers.
Iran prides itself on being a “modern state” and that means telecoms, which contributed to the dissolution of Russia.
I remember my diffy-q’s professor talking about an old Russian publication, the journal of differential equations I think. He said, the Russians had spectacular maths….better than ours…but they could never do anything with them. Because they couldn’t have home computers. A PC is a printing press. So the Russians couldn’t really compete.
A technologized educated workforce is human capital for global competition, but technology == freedom.
Saddam was not competing globally in international markets….he was an oil tick.
So his entire population was fungeable.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 10:19 AM · #
Oh…..and weren’t cell phones illegal under Uncle Saddam?
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 10:22 AM · #
And yes, NK is a good example of the oldskool regime style.
The citizenry is fungeable…. to be exploited as a resource in the work camps.
But I think the model Dr. Manzi is describing is simply incompatible with a technologized educated citizenry in the 21st century.
Plus the situ in Iran is vastly different because the opposition camp incorporates credible members of the 1979 revolution.
Manzi’s other set of “thugs.”
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 10:38 AM · #
Matoko, the UK Independent’s Robert Fisk is alleging a massacre at Teheran University
— Daniel Dare · Jun 16, 10:41 AM · #
Tweets on Sully’s site are saying that those 7 men-or-students stormed-or-attacked a Basij or IRGC facility.
I think not enough information to say yet.
Seven, while a tragedy, is hardly a massacre.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 11:04 AM · #
Excellent post. Just a little too heavy on the Hobbessian doom and gloom for my taste, but then again you’ve been in the middle of it.
— Steve C · Jun 16, 11:09 AM · #
I agree it is not definitive. Even Fisk is only reporting it as students’ claims. He is not a witness.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 16, 11:14 AM · #
If it really is just the case that maintaining power is just about having the biggest army and being willing to use it, then why doesn’t every country look like North Korea or Burma? It isn’t even the case that there’s some kind of fork in the road that forces countries to choose between full Western liberalization and absolute totalitarianism—there’s a number of countries, including the biggest in size and the biggest in population, that seem to have found some middle option between completely open and completely closed.
— Consumatopia · Jun 16, 11:20 AM · #
Yeah…what Consumatopia said…if that model is viable, why did the sovs fail?
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 11:28 AM · #
Consumatopia:
If it really is just the case that maintaining power is just about having the biggest army and being willing to use it, then why doesn’t every country look like North Korea or Burma?
Because some have figured out that freedom, rule of law, limited government and so on work better for most people, and have evolved the social insitutions that enable this. Your question, which is an excellent one in my opinion, could as easily be asked about why some places are poor and have never implemented a more-or-less capitalist norm the way rich places have. Barring some global catastrophe, if the limted government / capitalism formula really does produce greater wealth and military power, then competitive pressure should hopefully push more and more of the world to the kind of “end of history” convergence that we would all like to see. But that’s very far from saying that it will happen steadily or anytime soon or in Iran within the lifetime of our grandchildren’s grandchildren
It isn’t even the case that there’s some kind of fork in the road that forces countries to choose between full Western liberalization and absolute totalitarianism—there’s a number of countries, including the biggest in size and the biggest in population, that seem to have found some middle option between completely open and completely closed.
I agree fully. The process, when successful, appears to be predominatly evolutionary. Obviously there have been huge external pushes (e.g., Germany and Japan post-WWII), but I think that the social capital required was present in those societies as of 1945.
— Jim Manzi · Jun 16, 11:41 AM · #
The regime is not slaughtering doctors and nurses either.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 11:42 AM · #
Force underpins all government. But! — there also exist drivers of political sophistication. Problems of succession, problems of production, problems of distribution, problems of legitimacy, problems of political survival, to name a few.
Ceteris paribus, many ESS exist that solve for these problems according to the principle of parsimony. Jim’s point, if I read him right, is that the new tech of Twitter impacts the “ceteris paribus” for the mullah’s style of politics. The question is, how much, and is it enough?
— Sargent · Jun 16, 12:07 PM · #
Consumotopia:
“If it really is just the case that maintaining power is just about having the biggest army and being willing to use it, then why doesn’t every country look like North Korea or Burma?”
Some states gravitate to the pole that is the iron hand of Orwell while others gravitate to the pole that is the libertarian “freedom” of Huxley.
— forestwalker · Jun 16, 12:17 PM · #
I think the central question is: Did Ahmadinejad win fair and square, in which case he has no need for repression. The losers just have to get over themselves.
Or was it a coup d’etat, in which case the opposition is going to have to be silenced.
Ahmadinejad is in Yekaterinburg this week, attending a meeting of the SCO. I am sure the post-Tiananmen Chinese government can advise him how to handle it.
You have a period of free rein for the protestors, until they get it out of their system and most of them tire of it.
So promise them inquiries, investigations, recounts, whatever it takes to get them to calm down.
Delay delay delay, promise promise promise.
Then after a sensible time, when 90% have gone home, and when you know all the likely dangerous resistance ringleaders…
— Daniel Dare · Jun 16, 01:02 PM · #
What if Ahmadinejad actually won the election? What if all this technology is really fostering an undemocratic revolution where an economically and technologically powerful minority of Iranians are trying to overwhelm the majority by pitching a big enough fit until the authorities give in?
Mike
— MBunge · Jun 16, 01:44 PM · #
Why do you hate freedom Mike?
— forestwalker · Jun 16, 02:10 PM · #
The “gravitation” metaphor forestwalker uses gets at what I was trying to say. The two narratives of open and closed societies really do seem to have a gravitational aspect to them, in that being close to one extreme or the other seems to suck you even closer.
But that just doesn’t seem to be happening in reality. Most countries are in between, right?
I think the entire framework here—that most of the story is explained by a choice between external competitiveness and repression of internal challenges—seems to hide more than it reveals. For example, it doesn’t seem to explain how quickly or slowly the regime is willing to escalate violence in the face of mass popular unrest.
Seeing the military as primary here might be misleading. Yes, if the military acts as a monolithic block and follows without question the dictates of the ruler, then the ruler’s will becomes absolute. But this is more or less true of every class in society. If all the farmers monolithically decided to destroy all their crops, then the regime wouldn’t last much longer.
Perhaps in an alternate world in which farmers wore uniforms and saluted according to rank, while warriors were employed at will and worked for which ever side gave them the most food, then Alt-Sargent would say that Food underpins all government.
— Consumatopia · Jun 16, 02:17 PM · #
Sure it’s possible Ahmadinejad actually won, even if circumstantial evidence points the other way. But the protestors still wouldn’t be to blame for the current unrest if that were the case. There’s a lot of steps governments can take to make their elections more transparent, and Iran took none of them. It’s not the citizen’s job to falsify the government’s claims, it’s the government’s job to make their claims verifiable.
— Consumatopia · Jun 16, 02:31 PM · #
Well if we are going to talk EGT, it would be a CSS (Culturally Stable Strategy) not an ESS. And by Manzi’s evolutionary process argument repressive regimes automatically experience degradation of control when the population becomes technologized, because global interaction exposes the citizenry to mutant strategies and gives the citizenry access to the means of protest to affect change.
The only way to slow this natural process (in the case of the Chinese) is to decimate the technologized portion of the population in order to intimidate incipient reformists. Two things, this only works if the regime has enough spares, ie a fungeable population, and …..maybe it won’t work anymore.
What if Tienammen had been twittered?
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 02:49 PM · #
Consumatopia, the Bayesian probability of mischief is approaching limit 1, unless the Iranians have miraculously invented some sort of instant vote counting mechanism. A priori, we know the ballots were paper, and the last election took ten days to count.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 02:54 PM · #
Also, consider what a successful student uprising in Iran would teach chinese students.
Even an unsuccessful one.
The infection of mutant strategies.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 03:04 PM · #
My hypothesis based on available data, is that the Guardian council felt it had selected non-reform candidates, and the poll Fred Hiatt cited where Nejad led Mousavi 27% to 11% in the weeks before the election gave the regime a false sense of security. But the 57% that showed undecided in that poll some how conceptualized Mousavi as their dream candiate with incredible speed.
I think the electoral officals began counting the returns, and were shocked and horrified at the results, and simply panicked and made up results.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 03:18 PM · #
Matoko,
Tiananmen crackdown killed 2500 people and injured 70-10 thousand according to Red Cross quoted by Wiki. Many more were arrested and sentenced to various terms. It’s hardly decimation. That was the reason for waiting 7 weeks.
You may have countless thousands of people on the streets now, but in a month or two of endless negotiations and compromises, only the really determined hardliners will still be there.
Time is on the side of the incumbent government. If you are right about the coup, the government in the end will crush the leadership and the most loyal followers. Many will be in jail or for a year or two.
If you seriously think that dictatorial regimes care more about the good of the country, than they do about their own survival, then I think you are mistaken.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 16, 03:49 PM · #
The Solidarity uprising in Poland in 1980 lasted over a year before the authorities crushed it.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 16, 04:09 PM · #
The Chinese could afford 2500 students. They were fungeable.
If you are right about the coup, the government in the end will crush the leadership and the most loyal followers.
No. You are leaving out al-Islam. The government cannot crush this guy without self destructing.
Americans largely believe in the cartoon construct of al-Islam that Bush the Comick Rustick and the axis of Islamophobic idiots (Steyn, Malkin, Roobart Spbunsar, VDH, Daniel “Crack” Pipes, etc) manufactured to cheerlead the lower half the bellcurve (read socons) into the Clash of Civilizations.
The greens aren’t chanting “Halp us America, Land of the Free”, they are chanting Allahu Akbar!
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 04:14 PM · #
Whether time is on the side of the incumbents depends on how much popular support the challengers have. Do the protests shrink as people get bored, or do they grow as people grow more confident and bold?
Conversely, if you order an immediate crackdown, will that shock everyone into place, or will it inspire an immediate backlash that only makes the unrest louder?
— Consumatopia · Jun 16, 04:15 PM · #
Consumatopia, the equation is complicated by the question of the legitimacy of the election.
In a theocracy, there is the question of whose side Allah is on, translated as munaasafa (in arabic) or justice, which will be determined by Islamic jurisprudence.
Justice is one of the core concepts of al-Islam.
Sayeed Ayatollah Montazeri is in Qom, the second holiest site to Shi’ia Islam, where the school of Islamic jurisprudence is.
Do not underestimate the power of religion.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 04:47 PM · #
“The government cannot crush this guy without self destructing”.
“Do not underestimate the power of religion”.
You and I see different forces at work here. Time will tell.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 16, 05:04 PM · #
This is my favorite part, where he speaks to the army and police.
4- I ask the police and army personals not to “sell their religion”, and beware that receiving orders will not excuse them before god. Recognize the protesting youth as your children. Today censor and cutting telecommunication lines can not hide the truth.
Just deeds, (sahilat) are one of the five pillars of Islam.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 05:04 PM · #
Why can’t we just admit we don’t know what will happen. By Dan Dare’s logic, no revolution anywhere would have succeeded. By matoko’s, none would ever have failed.
It all depends on how fallible, unpredictable human beings will act.
— Pithlord · Jun 16, 10:50 PM · #
Oh that is a lie, Pithlord.
I am saying the religious component of the Green Revolution changes Dr. Riddick’s initial conditions.
It is not attempt to overthrow a theocracy by secualrized students, but a contest between two different strains of Islam, with clerics and religious scholars on each side.
Nejad’s fundies are very similiar to the religious right in this country, except for the israel thingy. They are rural, less-educated, rabid supporters of tradition and “virtue”, and very much in favor of legislating social mores and taboos based on their interpretation of Islam.
The Greens are also devout though.
They are not shouting “Halp America-Land-of-the-Free Come Save Us!” from the rooftops…they are shouting Allahu Akbar.
What is interesting about Sayeed Montazeri’s statement is because Iran is a theocracy with Islamic jurisprudence, he is saying that election fraud is not just illegal but a sin against al-Islam.
— matoko_chan · Jun 16, 11:13 PM · #
“By Dan Dare’s logic, no revolution anywhere would have succeeded”.
I’m not talking about any other revolution. I am talking about Iran. This is still a country with a strong central government. The system has survived revolution, war, repeated crises. Endless external pressure. The system has shown deep ruthlessness in dealing with its enemies.
We don’t even know for sure that Ahmadinejad lost the election.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 17, 12:24 AM · #
Dr. Riddick….It is a cyberwar.
And it is moving so fast.
The regime is trying to control information, by restricting foreign journalists to their hotelrooms.
But everyone with a cell is a journo now.
I thought the 4th dimension of warfare would be nukes…..I was wrong.
It is cyberspace and the war over influence and data.
— matoko_chan · Jun 17, 10:27 AM · #
Trouble is every time they communicate they give away their location, their social networks, their nodes.
If anyone is monitoring all that traffic it will make the authorities’ job a lot easier.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 17, 01:21 PM · #
You didn’t read my linkx she said reproachfully.
People here are DMing proxy IPs from the states and changing their time zones so they look they are in Iran.
The regime is putting disinfo out on Twitter and the greens are flagging the false nodes.
There have been DDOS attacks on both sides taking out the candidates websites!
It is like a scifi novel.
— matoko_chan · Jun 17, 02:22 PM · #
Matoko. It sounds plausible to you but not to me.
Lets say you are about to target a particular city block where there is a demonstration. You place a tap on the cells that cover the block. Cells in dense urban areas are small. You send your troops in for 10minutes to kick the termite nest, then withdraw. Shock gets the activists all excited so they start to send messages/calls/tweets. Every message from the cell is scanned for characteristic activity. Interesting messages are eyeballed/listened to.
Once you identify an activist’s phone. You monitor everything it does. One excited twitterer/texter/voicecaller leads to others. You build up the network, Identify the main nodes.
If the same phone is present at two different demonstrations, that is enough to identify it as a likely activist, even without worrying about the message. Over time you identify more and more of the network. One node leads to others. Every time marked phones call anywhere, they identify another possible target.
In short, its the geotemporal pattern of activity that first identifies the activist phones. Then just follow the network as it connects up.
The structure of the network identifies the important nodes. They are probably the leaders.
You don’t need tanks to stop a revolt in the information age. A knock on the door at 4:00am. “Are you the owner of cellphone xxxxxxxxx? We have orders to search the premises”.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 17, 05:36 PM · #
But can you do that to ten thousand people? to a hundred thousand people?
While in the meantime, every day, hundreds of professors are resigning in protest and millions of people are marching in the streets and the damned video and tweets and stills are still getting out and getting an international audience and the head of the Guardian Council is calling the election illegal and a sin and the head of the Assembly of Experts is trying to get a quorum to have you deposed?
— matoko_chan · Jun 17, 07:33 PM · #
“But can you do that to ten thousand people? to a hundred thousand people?”
Yes easy. First there is software that charts the network pattern and identifies the important nodes. It is widely used in criminology.
Secondly lots of people attend one or two protests and then retire. You want to know who keeps coming back. The activists are maybe 5% or less of the protestors. The leaders are 5% of the 5%.
“While in the meantime, every day, hundreds of professors are resigning in protest and millions of people are marching in the streets”
That is why you make calm noises. Official investigations, recounts, negotiations, blah blah. Time exhausts the revolt. Also it takes time for the network to settle down, for the organization to emerge. That is why the real crackdown is in the future. Assuming they go for crackdown rather than compromise. And assuming that Ahmadinejad actually lost the election, as opposed to merely winning less than the official figures, which were maybe meant to bolster his position.
“and the damned video and tweets and stills are still getting out and getting an international audience”
You think Iranian authorities care so much what Americans and Europeans think? Why? They’ve never cared before.
“and the head of the Guardian Council is calling the election illegal and a sin and the head of the Assembly of Experts is trying to get a quorum to have you deposed?”
And you believe this will succeed. Good luck. It’s an interesting theory that there is deep division in the clergy. But what is the dominant view that will actually end up being followed?
There is something else. Ahmadinejad is in Russia attending the SCO meeting as an observer. The two principal members Russia and China have superb cyberwarfare technology. If he needs help, Mahmoud only needs to ask. Calls from Tehran can be diverted via Beijing for analysis at their well-staffed and highly expert cyberwarfare centers. We have optical fiber these days. It can carry millions of phone conversations.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 17, 08:35 PM · #
See Matoko, they are already targetting activists
— Daniel Dare · Jun 17, 09:13 PM · #
But allowing Moussavi to tie Nejad to Russia is just as bad for Nejad as allowing Nejad to tie Moussavi to the US would be bad for Moussavi.
Muslims remember Afghanistan too.
Perhaps the greens will fail….this time.
But remember 70% of the country is under 30.
In the age of cyberwarfare, the age of information… they cannot be supressed forever.
I made a twittername today for this.
The protests are peaceful….more Selma than Tianamen.
In’shallah the greens will succeed…..but if not this time next time.
Can’t stop the signal.
I am going to have faith.
Allahu Akbar!
;)
— matoko_chan · Jun 17, 09:54 PM · #
It is not Russia that needs Iran, Matoko.
Russia has plenty of oil and gas.
It is China that thirsts for Iran’s energy resources,
like the dry ground thirsts for rain.
IMHO The SCO is much more China’s baby than Russia’s
It was just Russia’s turn to hold the meeting.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 17, 10:48 PM · #
“In’shallah the greens will succeed…..but if not this time next time.”
I can’t see any big difference between Moussavi and Ahmadinejad, myself.
They are both radical from the West’s pov.
In so far as the presidency has any influence in that system.
I am indifferent as to which of them wins.
On the surface, it seems like a purely internal power struggle.
Of no importance geopolitically.
However. The more important aspects are:
1. The most blatant manipulation yet of the electoral process. Iran is drifting away from democracy.
2. Iran is drawing deeper into the SCO fold. Coming on top of recently announced plans for China to develop the S Pars gasfields. I don’t think anyone should be surprised. One day Iran will be a fully-fledged member of the SCO.
It occurs to me that maybe it was the Chinese that prefered Ahmadinejad, and the Iranian government decided to accomodate them as the price of securing a full seat at the SCO table. Time will tell.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 17, 11:50 PM · #
But even China cannot suppress its population forever.
The more technologized the population becomes the more free they become, the more power they have.
Its cultural evolution.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 10:27 AM · #
I believe that the optimum balance between order and freedom is constantly changing for all societies.
There are times when more freedom works better; and there are times when more order and focus is required.
It is like Yin and Yang.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 18, 11:54 AM · #
Well Dr. Riddick ignores the part al-Islam plays in this particular drama.
In Iran Nejad’s fundies are the “pious anti-American poor” (btw the partial mirror of the socons, except the socons are islamophobic as a result of 911, while Nejad’s fundies are are anti-US because of Ajax and the Shah.)
Islam is immensely powerful in Iran.
Khameini has painted himself into a corner with his endorsement of the election.
Qom is in the ascendent.
The 1979 Islamic Revolution was fueled by rage at the meddlesome West, particularily against America and Operation Ajax.
This the struggle between two different visions of Islam, not the endlessly pimped clash-of-civilizations.
I think the Islamic clergy, which is also the islamic judiciary in a sense, may wind up deciding the outcome.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 01:14 PM · #
Also, Islamic conservatives are angry, because they have no voice.
The greens are largely technologized city dwellers, analogous to American liberals.
The rural fundamentalists don’t have cell phones or twitter.
It is astonishingly like American conservatives and liberals.
Still……election fraud is probability lim 1.
Counting 36million paper ballots in one hour?
I maintain…the electronic ballots were tabbed first and came up a landslide for Mousavi.
Panic backed Khameneini into a corner.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 01:54 PM · #
The 62% always seemed to stand out as an arbritrary figure….I suggest….that the 62% was actually for Moussavi in the urban ballots.
They just reversed it, and did a linear extrapolation to the provinces.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 01:57 PM · #
Maybe Pithlord was right after all.
Look at this
the greens are snapping cell phone pics.
The Baseej have started to have to wear masks, so they can no longer infiltrate the crowds.
And this…. parliment fisticuffs
“After Ansari, Abutorabi took the floor again and continued questioning the plainclothes security forces once again. At this point Hosseinian, Koochakzadeh, and resaee, the three biggest supporters of Ahmadinejad in the parliament, started a verbal argument which ended with a number of physical fights. As a result a number of pro and ant Ahmadinejad members of the parliament join the fight and start slapping and pushing each other.
In the end, the anti Ahmadinejad block claims that they will expose the identities of those behind the plainclothes security forces.
Keep in mind that the pro and anti Ahmadinejad blocks belong to the same political party! I think the government is starting to crack up from the inside.”
Sully grabbed the reins on this…in a visualized social network model the Dish is a blazing supernova of influence and connections. The greens send him data first.
Once again, stodgy old conservatism is left back at the start line.
Trying feebly to position themselves as anti-Obama, even when he is doing exactly the right thing.
I have to ask Dr. Riddick……
utram bibis? aquam an undam?
If conservatism always drinks the water, and never the wave, how can it EVAH shape opinion and influenence?
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 04:17 PM · #
In my country we have a very-complicated preferential voting system, using all-paper ballots. The major complication we have that Iran doesn’t have is timezones. Let’s say you flattened that.
I remember reading somewhere, that Iran introduced a new computer system this election, to aggregate the national count in real time. So that local counting stations enter their progressive counts into a central tally computer electorically.
I can believe that in an election, where the voting swing was large, wrt the last election, you could have a clear idea of the national picture after an hour. Probably the urban counting stations would have gone further than the rural counts, in that time, But the computer projections take that into account.
If the election victory is large, you would have a pretty good idea of the national swing, and can predict the outcome in one hour. I have known elections (in my country with paper ballots) where the computers called it in an hour and never “changed their minds” the whole count. It usually occurs where the swing is large and clear, and broadly-based across the nation.
So yeah they saw a result building on their computer screens, and decided to stop the count and announce what? The actual projection up to that point? A different result?
The biggest argument against the rigged election hypothesis is, why did they approve Mousavi as a candidate, if they didn’t think it acceptable if he won? The mullahs have to approve every candidate.
You are saying Supreme Leader Khamenei halted the count, because he could see Rafsanjani guy was going to win, and he couldn’t stand it?
— Daniel Dare · Jun 18, 04:24 PM · #
Just pure panic.
Two weeks before the election there was a poll, 27% for Nejad, 11% for Moussavi, 57% undecided.
Moussavi somehow co-opted the undecided vote with incredible speed.
36 million of the ballots were paper, no way……probably rural ballots where Nejad is stronger.
The only results they had were urban.
They freaked.
And….I am not sure who gave the order…..i suspect it was Nejad himself, or Nejad acting through Khameini.
I don’t know the protocol.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 04:40 PM · #
Khamenei was supposed to call it after 3 days, he announced it much earlier.
Here is an alternative hypothesis:
Sure there was heaps of ballot box stuffing and vote rigging across the nation. But the announcement was the actual computer projection at that stage.
Ahmadinejad won, as that early ballot implied, but maybe the real result, if you could have known it, would have been smaller than what was announced prematurely by the Supreme Leader.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 18, 04:54 PM · #
And I’ll tell you another reason why I think you could be wrong.
The mullahs don’t care much which candidate wins, because the whole idea of the presidency is to be the public face of the mullahtocracy.
The fact that the people get to choose the president is only a sop thrown to the public to placate them. The Mullahs know the president has no real power.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 18, 05:29 PM · #
No
It is waaaay more complex than that.
— matoko_chan · Jun 18, 09:44 PM · #
I don’t disagree with any of that stuff about the factions in the mullahtocracy. But none of that proves that Khamenei deliberately miscalled the election.
To believe that, you’d have to be asserting that Khamenei and Ahmadinejad are overthrowing the Mulahtocracy in favor of a personal dictatorship.
I say, where is the follow-up purge? Why aren’t they rounding up all the disloyal elements. Because to make your version stick you’d have to be remaking the Iranian goverment from the top down.
All those other factions would have to be silenced, removed from power.
Yet as far as I can see the mullahtocracy still functions, Ahmadinejad is in Russia, apparently far from the reins of power. Its a pretty implausible scenario for a coup d’etat.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 18, 10:50 PM · #
Dare….they panicked.
Mousavi was vetted by the Guardian Council, and looked to be losing to Nejad.
Somehow those 57% undecided co-opted Mousavi to be their dream reform candidate.
It was a spur of the moment fear panic choke.
They did something stupid.
— matoko_chan · Jun 19, 01:53 AM · #
It’s your theory. Why is it superior to the alternative?
The mullahs were watching the vote-count unfold in real time on the computer screens.
The early figures, and the computer projections based on them, made it pretty obvious that Ahmadinejad was going to win as expected.
Khamenei phoned around all the major factions.
They all agreed, like it or not, Ahmadinejad was going to win.
Khamenei made the announcement without bothering to wait for the final result. His figures were based on the computer projections.
Later all the stories emerged about the ballot box stuffing etc.
Maybe they are true. But were they significant enough to materially affect the outcome of the election? – Given the size of Ahmadinejad’s likely win?
Why would they panic? The president is only the lackey of the Mullahs anyway. He deals with the foreign unbelievers so the mullahs don’t have to.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 19, 02:27 AM · #
Dare they couldn’t count 36 million paper ballots in two hours.
It is impossible.
Sully’s take
I still think that 62% came from somewhere….I think they just flipped it, turned the anti-Nejad votes to pro-Nejad votes. If they had suspected this was going to happen, they could have been way more smooth and plausible. They thought from the poll and the Guardian council vetting was that Nejad would retain a comfortable margin. Bad polling caused this.
I stayed up to watch Khameini’s speech. Notice I do not call him Sayeed anymore.
There were no women in his bussed in audience of fundies…..none at all.
He has lost his legitimacy for me.
— matoko_chan · Jun 19, 10:34 AM · #
I believe I have already addressed the question of the ballots.
I understand your theory is different to mine.
I have never regarded any of them as “legitimate”. Neither Khameini, nor Rafsanjani, nor Ahmadinejad, nor Mousavi. Whoever wins, this remains a deeply flawed and imperfect “democracy”.
I believe that we should NOT encourage the people in Iran to communicate using cellphones and twitter. Because they are exposing themselves, and the crackdown will be terrible, when it comes. I don’t believe the spoofing countermeasures that you have advocated are sufficient to resist penetration by the authorities.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 19, 11:51 AM · #
All those regimes ARE legitimate regimes, Dare, if they are supported by the citizens.
Iran is a THEOCRACY and it is THEIR BIDDNESS NOT OURS.
— matoko_chan · Jun 19, 03:05 PM · #
Who knows if their citizens support them?
No free election with free choice of candidates has been held.
Selecting from an “approved” list is not a free election.
Most of the opposition to this regime end up driven into exile, or worse.
I agree it is not our business to change their system.
It is also beyond our power.
If we try to interefere, we risk placing their citizens in greater danger
— Daniel Dare · Jun 19, 06:38 PM · #
Well Dr. Manzi…..today I watched the evolution of twitter from a frivolous socialnetworking gizmo to an important news source. CNN dipped a toe in this morning and 10 hours later are rabid twitter enthusiasts.
In the morning they were all apolos for not having news, waiting like pathetic lapdogs for permission from the regime to file a story.
Ya Haqq!
Pithlord was right….any regime can now be overthrown with a technologized population. ;)
The video of the young conservative woman is the stake in Khameni’s cruel heart.
That girl’s death on viral youtube will bring down the regime.
She didn’t die in vain.
— matoko_chan · Jun 20, 07:46 PM · #
Good grief, Matoko, you sound like you’ve only just discovered the vicious nature of this regime. They’ve been hunting down and murdering their enemies for decades.
You should ask the Bahá’ís
— Daniel Dare · Jun 20, 09:15 PM · #
SO WHAT?
Is it our fuckin’ business if they killed Iranians? WE CANT BE THE SUPERAWESOME WORLD POLICE ANYMORE!
We cant afford it and it makes people hate us.
And that regime would have never got in and been so paranoid if not for operation ajax and the tyrant Shah.
Teacher: Earth-That-Was could no longer sustain our numbers, we were so many. We found a new solar system, dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. Each one terraformed, a process taking decades, to support human life, to be new Earths. The Central Planets formed the Alliance. Ruled by an interplanetary parliament, the Alliance was a beacon of civilization. The savage outer planets were not so enlightened and refused Alliance control. The war was devastating, but the Alliance’s victory over the Independents ensured a safer universe. And now everyone can enjoy the comfort and enlightenment of our civilization.
Young River: People don’t like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don’t run, don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right. We’re meddlesome.
I think Obama is done meddling…afterall….he has a half century at least of other peoples messes to clean up first.
That should keep him bizzy.
>:(
— matoko_chan · Jun 20, 09:24 PM · #
No it’s not our business.
— Daniel Dare · Jun 20, 09:39 PM · #